Posts by Sea Breeze

98

Better off PIMA than POMA or POMO.

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

the situation is many of us are pima and all putting on a front, sometimes saying something we don’t fully believe.

or at least are actually agnostic about but a hope that it’s true.. but it can be useful if someone is really going through a hard time or has something they are very worried about, to say things like well let’s hope there is not much longer of this old system.. this can be useful in an awkward situation where you just don’t know what to do or say.

it’s a little bit of hope that can help when there is nothing else.. my agnosticism just means i won’t look back over decades thinking i wasted my life.

Sea Breeze

Yes constantly testing and challenging.

@PIMA - I wasn't trying to offend you personally. My point is that it is a worthy endeavor to examine truth statements to see if they self implode or not. We were never allowed to think logically as JWs. They just ran over us mentally regardless of whether or not the doctrines were consistent with the New Testament.

For example, we are told in scripture not to trust man. So what did we do? We trusted implicitly in men to the point where little by little we came to believe the GB were the mouthpiece of God himself... instead of his word. I have to own that.

Gal. 1: 8-9 says that if we preach anything the apostles didn't preach we are cursed. So, what did we preach? We preached a gospel that required rejecting the the new covenanat that is explicitly "for the forgiveness of sins". (Mt. 26: 27-28) I have to own that too.

Once we leave the Word of God, a person could end up anywhere. They could end up like DJW, unable to state if it is objectively wrong if someone murders him or not. I know that murder is wrong because God says so. Being made in his image, I also know this intuitively. This makes sense to me. My worldview is logically consistent.

Atheists on the other hand, while reluctant to admit objective morality, do have it. Atheists are born with as much objective morality as the rest of us. That's not the question. The question is why should atheists believe in ANY objective morality? If all we are is a collection of chance chemicals and dna copying mistakes, then how can I be sure that any objective morality exists? Atheist morality is inconsistant and self emplodes.

Animals kill each other all the time, even eating their own young as primates have been observed doing. No big deal, they are animals. Animals do what animals do. Chemicals fizz the way they fizz. Why should one chemical care how another chemical fizzes?

When atheists argue that they don't need the bible to determine if murder or sexually abusing children is wrong, they are standing on Christian ground. They have to morally borrow from the Christian worldview in order to argue against it. They have to use a Christian presupposition (being made in the image of God) in order to argure against Christianity. Interesting isn't it?

98

Better off PIMA than POMA or POMO.

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

the situation is many of us are pima and all putting on a front, sometimes saying something we don’t fully believe.

or at least are actually agnostic about but a hope that it’s true.. but it can be useful if someone is really going through a hard time or has something they are very worried about, to say things like well let’s hope there is not much longer of this old system.. this can be useful in an awkward situation where you just don’t know what to do or say.

it’s a little bit of hope that can help when there is nothing else.. my agnosticism just means i won’t look back over decades thinking i wasted my life.

Sea Breeze

DJW,

Why can't you admit that it is objectively morally wrong for someone to murder you? We all know what you would claim if this was tested. Do you really need scientists, the bible or someone else to give you permission to believe this?

Is your mind that far gone?

98

Better off PIMA than POMA or POMO.

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

the situation is many of us are pima and all putting on a front, sometimes saying something we don’t fully believe.

or at least are actually agnostic about but a hope that it’s true.. but it can be useful if someone is really going through a hard time or has something they are very worried about, to say things like well let’s hope there is not much longer of this old system.. this can be useful in an awkward situation where you just don’t know what to do or say.

it’s a little bit of hope that can help when there is nothing else.. my agnosticism just means i won’t look back over decades thinking i wasted my life.

Sea Breeze

DJW,

I can see you are really struggling with this. Let's go to a dictionary:

MUR'DER, noun [Latin mors.]

1. The act of unlawfully killing a human being with premeditated malice, by a person of sound mind. To constitute murder in law, the person killing another must be of sound mind or in possession of his reason, and the act must be done with malice prepense, aforethought or premeditated; but malice may be implied, as well as express.

Does it make sense to you why people in general don't trust atheists if you cannot even admit that it would be morally wrong for someone to take your own life?

How could anyone feel safe under the control of someone like this?

98

Better off PIMA than POMA or POMO.

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

the situation is many of us are pima and all putting on a front, sometimes saying something we don’t fully believe.

or at least are actually agnostic about but a hope that it’s true.. but it can be useful if someone is really going through a hard time or has something they are very worried about, to say things like well let’s hope there is not much longer of this old system.. this can be useful in an awkward situation where you just don’t know what to do or say.

it’s a little bit of hope that can help when there is nothing else.. my agnosticism just means i won’t look back over decades thinking i wasted my life.

Sea Breeze

At this time I prefer to not state if I think either of those two types of human morality are correct or not, since it is difficult for me to make a definite decision about such. Determining what is moral or immoral in some specific situations is not an easy one for me to make, especially when it comes to deciding what morality to apply to people other than myself.

DJW,

Would it help if I put a gun to your head and told you that I just loved killing people?

(Not that I would ever do that. ) But, would an event like that help you to decide?

Can you see now why polls indicate that most people don't trust atheists and why they are among the least liked groups?

After leaving one of the most least liked groups as a JW, you found one that may be even less popular.

98

Better off PIMA than POMA or POMO.

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

the situation is many of us are pima and all putting on a front, sometimes saying something we don’t fully believe.

or at least are actually agnostic about but a hope that it’s true.. but it can be useful if someone is really going through a hard time or has something they are very worried about, to say things like well let’s hope there is not much longer of this old system.. this can be useful in an awkward situation where you just don’t know what to do or say.

it’s a little bit of hope that can help when there is nothing else.. my agnosticism just means i won’t look back over decades thinking i wasted my life.

Sea Breeze

It all comes down to proof.

@PIMA - Have you tested this statement to see if it is true?

See what I'm saying? If your truth statement about poof, can't be proven then it contradicts itself and logically should rejected by its own standard.

Sea Breeze: What if someone chooses a purpose that requires them to murder you?
You seem to be saying that, without God, we cannot agree on standards of behavior.

@TonusOH - No, I'm not saying that.

I'm saying that people who preach freedom in subjective morality chatacterized by pop sayings such as:

1. to each his own

2. diferent strokes for different folks

3. if it makes you happy it can't be that bad

..would immediately change their philosophy about subjectivity when someone tests that worldview by purtting a gun to their head. Then the worldview would be no, you can't do that because it is objectively wrong to murder me.

See what I'm saying? There must be some room for objective morality in order for it to make sense. Otherwise, the word "morality" itself woud have no meaning.

98

Better off PIMA than POMA or POMO.

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

the situation is many of us are pima and all putting on a front, sometimes saying something we don’t fully believe.

or at least are actually agnostic about but a hope that it’s true.. but it can be useful if someone is really going through a hard time or has something they are very worried about, to say things like well let’s hope there is not much longer of this old system.. this can be useful in an awkward situation where you just don’t know what to do or say.

it’s a little bit of hope that can help when there is nothing else.. my agnosticism just means i won’t look back over decades thinking i wasted my life.

Sea Breeze

DJW,

There is widespread belief that atheists are untrustworthy and lack an objective moral compass. However, I have seen a great deal of evidence to the contrary in bold comments by Cofty and Simon over the years. I usually don't weigh in on these differences among atheists, until now.

Other atheists on this board (certainly not all) seem to promote the subjectivity type of morality, which leads to absurdity as I have tried to demonstrate.

I have also seen marked differences between European atheists and American style atheists.

There are reliable similarities as well as differences between believers and disbelievers in the moral values and principles they endorse. And, that is what I'm trying to explore.

98

Better off PIMA than POMA or POMO.

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

the situation is many of us are pima and all putting on a front, sometimes saying something we don’t fully believe.

or at least are actually agnostic about but a hope that it’s true.. but it can be useful if someone is really going through a hard time or has something they are very worried about, to say things like well let’s hope there is not much longer of this old system.. this can be useful in an awkward situation where you just don’t know what to do or say.

it’s a little bit of hope that can help when there is nothing else.. my agnosticism just means i won’t look back over decades thinking i wasted my life.

Sea Breeze

Cofty,

Hope you had a good visit with your new grandson. While you've been gone we've been discussing morality from a Christian / Atheist point of view and DJW is highlighting moral subjectivity as a great tenet of atheism. I have pointed out flaws in such arbitrariness.

I am familiar with some of your views on this topic and would be surprised if you agreed with this view. But, I could be wrong. Do you believe atheists are capable of holding objective morality?

98

Better off PIMA than POMA or POMO.

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

the situation is many of us are pima and all putting on a front, sometimes saying something we don’t fully believe.

or at least are actually agnostic about but a hope that it’s true.. but it can be useful if someone is really going through a hard time or has something they are very worried about, to say things like well let’s hope there is not much longer of this old system.. this can be useful in an awkward situation where you just don’t know what to do or say.

it’s a little bit of hope that can help when there is nothing else.. my agnosticism just means i won’t look back over decades thinking i wasted my life.

Sea Breeze

DJW,

Perhaps I poorly worded a few things.

But atheists do in fact beleive that we are just chemicals and copying mistakes. You don't worry about if your soda cans in your pantry find purpose do you? That is the kind of purpose I'm talking about.

Like I said The Marquis de Sade found happiness in administering pain to women. If the happiness he experienced was greater than the unhappiness of his victims, then the net gain makes it moral if happiness is the standard.

People can choose their own purpose! That is part of the great uplifting message of atheist naturalism!

Really? So our purpose is subjective? What if someone chooses a purpose that requires them to murder you? That logic doesn't really work does it?

The Christian purpose is to love God and to love your neighbor... even your enemies. I can make sense of that because it is rooted in God's character.

I cannot make sense of soda cans and broken data codes needing purpose.

98

Better off PIMA than POMA or POMO.

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

the situation is many of us are pima and all putting on a front, sometimes saying something we don’t fully believe.

or at least are actually agnostic about but a hope that it’s true.. but it can be useful if someone is really going through a hard time or has something they are very worried about, to say things like well let’s hope there is not much longer of this old system.. this can be useful in an awkward situation where you just don’t know what to do or say.

it’s a little bit of hope that can help when there is nothing else.. my agnosticism just means i won’t look back over decades thinking i wasted my life.

Sea Breeze

3 days ago

If you believe in evolution there is no possible hope at all everything is pointless and without purpose.

Nicolaou: Why do you feel this way? I'm a happy atheist

@ Nicolaou - So your purpose in life is to go around telling people that they can be happy without a purpose in life? Isn't that self-contradictory? Doesn't make any sense.

How do you know if what makes you happy will bring someone else happiness? It's not like we are all wearing happiness meters on our arms where we can see - this person has a 50 on the happiness scale but this person only has a 20.

And whose happiness scale does the atheist go by anyway? The Marquis de Sade found happiness in administering pain to women. If the happiness he experienced was greater than the unhappiness of his victims, then the net gain makes it moral if happiness is the standard.

Atheist ideas ultimately end up in absurdity because the ideas are rooted in the irrational rejection of God. So, the ground he stands on is itself irrational, arbitrary and chaotic.

98

Better off PIMA than POMA or POMO.

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

the situation is many of us are pima and all putting on a front, sometimes saying something we don’t fully believe.

or at least are actually agnostic about but a hope that it’s true.. but it can be useful if someone is really going through a hard time or has something they are very worried about, to say things like well let’s hope there is not much longer of this old system.. this can be useful in an awkward situation where you just don’t know what to do or say.

it’s a little bit of hope that can help when there is nothing else.. my agnosticism just means i won’t look back over decades thinking i wasted my life.

Sea Breeze

either chance or intelligent design can’t be proven.

Hi Pima,

I truly appreciate your attepts at acquiring a new worlview after WT. It is unavoidable and is a worthy pursuit.

Your above statement is a truth claimed based on empiricism. Did you prove this by empirical observation? No, you can't see a truth claim. It is abstract. So, how do you know the statement itself is true?

So, the notion that all truth claims ought to be determined by empirical observation, cannot be proved by emirical observation and therefore should be rejected by its own standard.

Many things can be proved by empirical observation, just not all. So, it cannot be the ultimate standard of truth.

Christians don't have this problem.